Notes from a Real Conversation with Keith McCullough, and the argument underneath it
Listen to the Video
This week I had the pleasure of sitting down with Keith McCullough for one of Hedgeye’s Real Conversations. It was the small hours of the morning in Brisbane and late afternoon in the US, which is the modest tax you pay for a conversation worth having. The full discussion is below, and I would encourage you to watch it.
What stayed with me afterwards was not where Keith and I differ, but where we arrive. He reads the economy from altitude, tracking the rate of change of growth and inflation, the regime the system is sitting in. I read it down at the waterline, in the movement of price. Two vantage points, two instruments, two very different views of the same river. And yet we kept landing in the same room. Neither of us predicts. We observe, we align, and we wait for price to confirm before we act. Two doors into one building.
That convergence is what I want to develop here, because in the conversation we could only point at it in passing. The blog is where it gets the space it deserves. And the clearest way into it is through the one idea that seemed to unsettle people most: the market underneath the market has quietly become something far more fragile than most investors are willing to admit.
A market that used to care what things were worth
Begin with a before-and-after that anyone who has traded long enough will recognise.
Not so long ago, markets stayed roughly tethered to some shared notion of fair value. Not because the tether was real in any deep sense, but because most of the participants believed in it. The ecosystem was full of agents who cared about price. Value investors buying what they judged to be cheap. Analysts arguing over what a thing was worth. Traders fading moves they thought had gone too far. They disagreed constantly, and that disagreement was the point. It kept the market honest.
That world has been slowly hollowed out. The largest and fastest-growing pool of capital in markets today is passive, and passive is not price sensitive in any meaningful way. It does not ask what something is worth. It buys by an allocation rule. Money comes in, and it flows to whatever is already biggest, because that is what the index says to do. The bigger a thing becomes, the more must be bought, which makes it bigger still. It is a feedback loop with nothing on the other side of it, a popularity contest in which being popular is the only qualification required.
I want to be careful here, because this is easy to turn into a sermon and I have no interest in one. Passive investing has given ordinary savers cheap, broad access to markets, and that is a genuine good. The point is not moral. It is structural. We have changed the mix of agents in the system, and when you change the mix of agents, you change what the system can do.
Disagreement was the shock absorber
Here is the part that took me years to see clearly.
A market full of competing models is a market with shock absorbers built into it. All those clashing opinions, the value buyer and the momentum trader and the mean reverter and the macro tourist, quietly cushion one another. When one group pushes too far in one direction, another group leans the other way. The disagreement itself is the stabiliser. It is not a flaw in the market to be engineered away. It is the thing that lets the market absorb a blow without shattering.
Now watch what happens when one kind of agent comes to dominate. The counterweights thin out. The leaning-the-other-way crowd gets smaller every year. And a market that increasingly moves in one direction, for one reason, with fewer and fewer participants willing to take the other side, becomes brittle. There is less and less holding it in place when it is pushed.
This is the quiet danger, and it is quiet by design. On the way up, none of it shows. Steady inflows lift prices, concentration builds in the largest names, volatility falls, and everything looks calm and even pleasant. The fragility is invisible precisely because the mechanism that creates it also creates the calm. The risk is not in the smooth middle that we can all see. It is stored in the tail, in the reversal, in the moment the flows turn and there is no price-sensitive buyer left whose whole job is to step in when price dislocates. That buyer is the very species we have been thinning out.
So I am not making a crash call. I have no idea when, and I distrust anyone who claims they do. What I am describing is not a trigger. It is an amplifier. It does not start the fire. It removes the sprinklers. Whatever the eventual spark, an oil shock, a credit event, a policy mistake, this structure is what decides whether the result is an ordinary correction or a hole in the floor.
Why this argues for aligning, not predicting
If you accept that the turn cannot be predicted and cannot be timed, then only one posture is left that makes any sense. You stop trying to forecast the reversal and you concentrate instead on being aligned to what the system is actually doing, so that you turn with it rather than getting run over by it.
This is what Keith and I were circling the whole conversation. He waits for price to confirm the regime before he acts on his read of the weather. I follow price like a shadow, one step behind, ready to step off the moment the trend breaks. We are both refusing the thing that feels most natural to the human mind, which is to predict, to know in advance, to tell the market what it should do. The market does not care what it should do. It only does what it does, and our work is to read that honestly and align with it, not to argue with it.
The fragility argument and the alignment posture are the same idea seen from two sides. A market that has removed its own counterweights is a market whose turns will be faster and more violent when they come. In that kind of market, the cost of being wrong about a prediction is higher than ever, and the value of simply being aligned, and being quick to exit, is higher than ever too. The structure of the modern market is itself the strongest argument for following it rather than forecasting it.
The residue of what survives
There is a deeper way I think about all of this, and I will close on it.
Structure, in markets as in nature, is the residue of process. It is what is left standing after everything that could not survive has been carved away. A riverbank holds the memory of every flood in the thickness of its silt. A market holds the memory of every crisis in the rules and habits and structures that the crisis left behind. We are, right now, living through a slow change in what the market is made of, and one day a shock will arrive and reveal what this new structure can and cannot withstand. What survives that moment will be the next structure. It always is.
None of us can see that moment coming. But we can read the system we are embedded in, notice what it has quietly become, and position ourselves to survive the turn rather than to predict it. That is the whole game, and it is a good deal older and a good deal simpler than the industry would like you to believe.
Richard Brennan writes on systematic trading, complex adaptive markets, and the philosophical foundations of trend following at atstradingsolutions.com. His books include The Fractals of Finance and Complex Adaptive Markets. The forthcoming Carved by Impossibility completes the trilogy.
Want the theoretical foundation for why markets adapt?
Complex Adaptive Markets: How Living Systems Shape Finance
The book explores the full architecture of feedback, emergence, and adaptive behaviour in financial markets, and what it means for how we trade, invest, and understand risk.
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Want the theoretical foundation for why trend following works?
The Fractals of Finance: Determinism, Adaptation and the Geometry of Markets
The book explores the full architecture of feedback, fat tails, and fractal structure in financial markets, and what it means for how we trade, invest, and understand risk.
Available now on Amazon in paperback, hardcover, and Kindle.
Want a practical field manual for trading trends and capturing outliers?
The Aussie Turtles Trend Following Guide: A Field Manual for Hunting Outliers adapts the timeless principles of the original Turtle traders into a systematic, rules-based approach for modern markets. Co-authored with Adam Havryliv.
Available now on Amazon in paperback, hardcover, and Kindle.